"AND whose idea was it to sign McGovern? He was bloody useless...''

It's one of the humoured scenes in acclaimed football film The Damned United, Brian Clough, the subject of the movie, and Peter Taylor talking about their new Derby midfielder.

Yet useless is one word Brian Clough would hardly use when speaking of John McGovern - after all he twice skippered the European Cup winning Nottingham Forest side for his master and mentor.

And McGovern disputes that scene from the big screen - "They were talking about a game in which I didn't even play.''

McGovern and Clough were football longevity. From Hartlepools to Derby, onto Leeds and ending their 13-year relationship Nottingham Forest; where the manager went he took his workhorse with him.

Clough could - and did - ruin many a footballer, many of them better footballers than McGovern.

But the midfielder, whose job it was to chase, harass and break down play, understood his manager. And it was Clough's ability to break down the nuances of football which helped shape McGovern, from a 16-year-old fresh from Henry Smith's School to lifting the European Cup in the Bernabeu Stadium.

"I did what Brian told me to do because it made sense to me,'' mused McGovern. "He broke everything down simply to a basic level. He would say that if he wanted you to do something he would tell you once, he might even tell you twice, three times and it shows you won't listen.

"All these gems and pieces of education made sense.''

McGovern learned how to listen to football's most charismatic individual. Jose Mourinho, Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger are from a different era, but of similar stock.

"Brian Clough was unusual. Unique. He said things that meant something. No-one could win a debate with him,'' said McGovern.

"Stan Bowles sat in one of his first team meetings at Forest and Cloughy is slaughtering me for Saturday, saying I didn't support somebody in the game, which was a half-truth.

"Stan came out the meeting and asked how I could take that - 'if he was having a go at me like that I wouldn't take it and have a go back at him' he reckoned.

"Two weeks later, Cloughy says 'and Bowlesy, you as well, you know....'. So Stan says the one thing you should never say. 'Boss I think you are wrong'. I looked away, knew what was coming and an hour later - a full hour later - Cloughy has just finished with him and Stan says he will never answer him back again.

"For an hour he got lectured about what he should have done..... order the sandwiches and tea I thought, we are going to be a long time here.''

McGovern was a long time around Clough, from the moment he turned on the charm in the family home, the relationship lasted.

From his time with Central Park in the Hartlepool Church League, McGovern was soon making his bow in the real game and he became Pools' youngest ever player at 16 years and 205 days.

"When Mr Clough was around things didn't take much persuading, he charmed my grandmother more than me mam,'' he recalled.

"And that was it, they gave me a chance to follow the dream. It was a very strict family and they wanted me to better myself, but after one year in junior football I was making my Football League debut.

"There must have been something there with ability and talent, but fate puts you in certain directions.''

It wasn't long before McGovern and his team-mates were creating history, earning Pools promotion for the first time.

Clough had by then gone to Derby, replaced by the autocratic Gus McLean, and McGovern couldn't wait to get out.

"When Clough left for Derby and Angus McLean took over, out of courtesy I went in to see him,'' he recalled. "He said 'you are Cloughy's blue eyed boy and I am going to change all that'. I was 18 and he verbally bullied me, derided me, said I couldn't run, couldn't tackle, couldn't head a ball.

"Because he and his trainer [John Simpson] were very good at that and very harsh I used to be physically sick on the pitch before and during games.

"I used to disguise it by pretending to tie my laces, it was embarrassing.

"McLean used to deride and criticised you for the sake of it, with no foundation. When Cloughy did it, it was with foundation and substance so there was a reason why he was doing it. If Cloughy did it, you became a better player by listening to him.

"A young player like me would soak it in like a sponge. Then you would start to soak in some of it, the bits that were relevant to you.

"As you get more mature you get a better understanding of what you do. As an apprentice at Hartlepool and, to a certain extent at Derby, I was there to learn as a young player.

"At Derby, if I hadn't succeeded I would have been a bad player and gone back to Hartlepool - instead I went onto greater things and that was because the guy I was working for made me confident.''

Clough and Taylor were the perfect double act.

First they were striker and goalkeeper at Middlesbrough, before Clough, on appointment at Pools, approached Burton Albion's coach.

They were together at Pools, Derby and Forest. Tellingly, not at Leeds. The one point in Clough's career when he floundered.

Then they fell out, went their separate ways in 1982 and there was no reconciliation before Taylor died in 1990.

"To a degree, Brian and Peter were lost without each other,'' said McGovern. "Perfect together, no doubt. It's like an AC-DC riff and then Brian Johnson's vocals - one is good, but together superb.

"They fell out, a real sad situation. They were both stubborn. How could they be like they were for so long before one says something which ends it?

"You had these two immoveable forces who never made up which was very sad. They were so extreme they couldn't make up. Any forgiveness in them and they could have got back together. They were so proud neither would admit they were wrong.

"Sometimes you need to back down to keep the peace - they wouldn't, neither of them.

"Cloughy would say 'we' did this and that, but the 'we' was him and Pete - not the football club. They were fascinating characters.''

And McGovern felt the wit and wisdom of Taylor was perfect foil for the abrasive (and equally charming at times) Clough.

"After one of my early games at Hartlepools he called me over and promised to tell me something I would be thankful for as long as I played football,'' he remembered.

"He said as professionals reach the age of 30, they all lose a yard of pace, but I would never have that problem.

"Thanks for that ... a backhanded compliment of sorts. I was 17, it was Pete who said it and I could hear him walking back in, probably laughing with Brian.

"Cloughy used to smile, he wouldn't laugh a lot but he would smile at Pete because he was so funny. Cloughy would be sarcastic at best, Pete was genuinely funny.''

Elland Road was the nadir for both Clough and McGovern. Just like McLean saw him as Clough's child at the Victoria Ground, so the Leeds players and supporters did the same and didn't give him a chance.

"Brian struggled at Leeds because they weren't together and he went in like a bull at a gate,'' said McGovern.

"His famous 'get all your medals and throw them in the bin' speech was true - Norman Hunter told me that.

"You can say a lot of things to players, but call them a cheat and it's wrong. He thought he could bulldoze the dressing room there, but people like Jonny Giles and Billy Bremner, they had won everything and were very clever people.

"It was hard for me there, I was an outsider. I only played four games for them.

"It was impossible for Brian. I couldn't wait to get away in the circumstances.''

He added: "I was treated badly and it helped shape me. Why they gave Brian the job in the first place, I don't know. At Derby I got on well with Dave Mackay, he preferred Bruce Rioch in midfield when he took over and Brian wanted me at Leeds.

"But he was lucky. He got out after 44 days with a 90 grand pay off and a Mercedes car, in the meantime I was there seven months.

"There was none of the open confrontation you see in the film of The Damned United, they never squared up. It was whispers behind backs. There was an open statement at the time, Giles said we wanted a manager who knows his job. I thought Cloughy was going to go nuts and start telling them what he thought of them. Instead he said perhaps we could wipe the slate clean.

"Then he walked out, phoned his solicitor and said that was it.''

John McGovern, From Bo'ness to the Bernabeu is available from www.visionsp.co.uk