Should we jail pregnant women?

YES: Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, former Home Office advisor.

THERE has been a long running debate about the imprisonment of women by the courts. There are those who take the view that imprisonment should not be an option for the courts when dealing with female offenders who are pregnant. This view is reinforced by cases like that of Katrina Robinson, the 20-year-old pregnant woman jailed for affray by Teesside Crown Court recently. She sadly lost the baby shortly after being sentenced.

Sad though that case was, I do not believe that courts should lose the option of jailing pregnant women for those offenders who deserve a custodial sentence. Justice should be equal and to introduce arbitrary discrimination in certain cases would be wrong. It could militate against justice being done.

In any event it seems to me that in the Robinson case, this young lady was the author of her own misfortune. Her parents should have employed their energies towards preventing their daughter from getting involved in an affray in the first place - a very serious offence - whilst heavily pregnant. I notice in the reports that I read that no mention was made of the 16-year-old victim who was attacked.

I have no doubt the Prison Reform Trust, the Howard League et al will argue that pregnant women should not be jailed at all. Think of the consequences of such an arbitrary rule. Some women would purposely become pregnant before their trials; women would be used as foot soldiers, in the same way that children are used to foment violence in the Middle East - and would be seen to some extent as untouchable. It would, in a sense, be a licence to commit crime.

Whilst writing this piece I hear that three women have been arrested in the terrorist investigations in London. Is it seriously being suggested that if any of them were pregnant they could not be held? These are life and death matters involving the welfare of decent, law-abiding members of the public and no such restrictions could or should be placed on those charged with protecting the British public.

Women, thankfully, amount to a relatively small, although increasing proportion of the prison population, mainly due to fraud, drug-running and prostitution. However, mainly fuelled by alcohol, violent offences by women are becoming more prevalent and the courts need their full range of powers to meet this challenge. The message should go out quite clearly that if people indulge in violence, particularly with weapons or in groups, that they will feel the full weight of the law if convicted - whether male or female.

Finally, of course, we have those women who many years ago would have been executed for the heinous crimes which they had committed.

The "don't jail pregnant women" rule would surely be unthinkable in cases such as the child killer, Myra Hindley, who conspired with Ian Brady to torture and murder children in the 1960s, tape-recording a child's pleadings in the proceeds. Similarly, the despicable Rosemary West who more recently was jailed for assisting her husband Fred in the rape and murder of young women, some within her own family.

The courts should not be shackled in having the full range of sentencing powers required to deal with the whole range of crimes which come before them. We empower them to sentence appropriately and fairly on our behalf that minority of our citizens who choose not to live by the rules which the common law and parliament provides for the better protection of society. That means that if pregnant women commit crimes, they too should face the consequences.

NO: Lucie Russell, Director of Smart Justice, which seeks community-based solutions to crime. Lucie is based at the Prison Reform Trust.

I DON'T believe that being pregnant should be an excuse for not having some kind of sanction or punishment, but we have got to be aware of the impact on the unborn child, who actually is innocent.

Giving birth to a child in a prison setting, and bringing a child up in a prison setting, is obviously going to have quite a profound impact on a child.

We went on a tour of Holloway Prison recently and all of the prison officers were saying that they have to get volunteers to walk the babies around the streets because they aren't used to traffic noise. They basically take them out to try to acclimatise them to the outside world.

Half of the women in prison are victims of domestic violence, a third have been abused as children and at least two thirds have mental health issues. When you combine this with that fact that nine out of ten women are inside for non-violent offences, it makes you think that they would benefit more from alternatives to prison.

Two thirds of the women are sentenced for six months or less which means that you're not going to do much with the women for the time they are in prison. They're going to go back into the community much more damaged than when they went in. What we want from a criminal justice system is to prevent further victims.

There are few prisons with mother and baby units and they may end up going somewhere which is hundreds of miles away from their families and friends, which again is very damaging. By the beginning of July last year, under half of all women in prison were held more than 50 miles from their home town and nearly a quarter were held more than 100 miles away.

It's also very, very expensive to keep people in prison and it is something that we, as the taxpayer, have to pay for.

I think the mother and baby units in prisons are doing the best that they can in very difficult circumstances. But they are over-subscribed and if there isn't a place in a mother and baby unit then, if they're very young children, they will be placed with relatives or put into care. A woman might have to give birth in prison knowing that she's going to be separated from her baby.

It's quite paradoxical because the more prisons create more mother and baby units, the more they're going to get used because the services aren't up to scratch in the community. I'm not saying women should never go to jail if they are pregnant but I do think there are better ways of dealing with them.

You might have the odd woman who is a very serious offender - of course the likes of Rosemary West should be locked up - but more women are sentenced for shoplifting than they are for any other crime and 81 per cent are back behind bars within two years.

I think we should be thinking of alternatives. We advocate more community-based punishments and intensive support.