AN EXASPERATED Mr John Thorley launched a blistering attack on environment and conservation bodies, accusing them of not listening to what farmers advised and of committing livestock farmers to a path of destruction.

His onslaught followed a statement by Dr Peter Welsh, regional director of English Nature, who is based in Leyburn.

Mr David Smith, chairman of the NSA, had said that many sheep farmers were overwhelmed by the plethora of conservation groups. "The list is almost endless and they are all singing from a different hymn sheet," he said. "They all have different views on how they want our beautiful countryside managed ... the most important element is overlooked, that is the gardener - the farmer - and his sheep."

Dr Welsh agreed there were many organisations "dabbling" in the countryside but it was important to distinguish between government-based and voluntary bodies.

"It starts to cut down a bit when you look at just the government-based and, speaking personally, I do think there is scope for bringing some agencies under one umbrella."

Dr Welsh felt agencies like his had worked hard in recent years to work with farmers. They realised the people who had farmed and managed the land over the centuries had the greatest experience to give.

"There are a lot of us new to land management and of course we have to learn from you; we are doing that - do bring us up short if we do not seem to be," he said, saying the two parties had to keep talking.

Mr Thorley, chief executive of the NSA, could contain himself no longer.

"I think you and I live in different worlds," he said. "I am amazed at what you said because the thing that gets to me more than anything is that the environment organisations do not listen; they are incapable of taking on other thought processes apart from their own."

He cited the switch from headage to area payments as a prime example: "It is one of the most misunderstood issues, simply because the environment bodies do not, and will not, understand."

They had committed the country to a path which would lead to the destruction of many livestock businesses. "I believe that will come out in the next few years because there is nothing that tells me otherwise," said Mr Thorley.

"It is a nightmare which has been visited upon the industry at a time when we least need it. We have put the cost argument and you damn well have not listened."

He was applauded loudly by the farmers attending the panel session of the evening.

Dr Welsh and Mrs Sarah Bradbury, MAFF deputy regional director based in Carlisle, were again both accused of not listening on the matter of alleged over-grazing by sheep.

Mrs Bradbury said MAFF did acknowledge the input farmers contributed to the countryside.

With regard to the switch from headage to area payments, they could not ignore the fact that sheep had caused considerable environmental damage in some areas.

"There is scientific evidence," she said amid loud denials from the farmers. "You may take exception but I am not going to argue about it."

Some upland areas had been damaged by overgrazing and MAFF could not be seen to support that through a system of payments. "We need a balance for farmers to farm in a sustainable way," she said.

Mr David Raine, former NSA national chairman, said the reason the uplands were the way they were was through grazing by sheep. There was as great a danger from under-grazing as there was from over-grazing.

Dr Welsh said English Nature understood the danger of things swinging too far the other way and understood sheep farming was necessary to maintain the uplands, which were internationally renowned.

But he caused more uproar when he said they had debated very positively with sheep farmers in many parts of the country.

"We may have disagreed but it does not mean we have not listened, although we may have come to conclusions you disagree with," he said. "We have entered debates in good faith."

Mr Smith, NSA chairman, said generations of farmers and their livestock had created today's uplands.

"The majority of people wanting to alter this have got their own little agenda and heaven help us if they get their way," he said.

Mr Thorley said economics had led to fewer people farming in the hills. Sheep naturally sought out the best grass and shelter and there was not always the labour to spread them out more.

The new pressures the government and environment bodies were imposing would only make matters worse, not better.

"It is desperately serious. It is a lack of understanding, I honestly do not believe you understand the problem," he told Dr Welsh, who said they did not want people to leave the hills.

But Mr Thorley said there was such an atmosphere of red tape and bureaucracy being created that farmers were questioning the point of continuing.

"There are more people involved in red tape, controlling what is done on the farm, than there are farming. It makes no sense at all," he said.

Mr Malcolm Corbett, newly elected regional vice-chairman, asked when farmers would be allowed to be primary food producers again instead of park keepers.

Mr Joe Raine attracted great applause when he warned MAFF that it should be worried about the loss of farmers. "You are going to see a far, far greater reduction over the next two years than the last two," he warned.

Mr Raine said there were now so many birds of prey in some areas that they were endangering grouse populations. "What is going to happen to the economies of the hills, because grouse are worth more than sheep now?" he asked.

"There are many farms around Swaledale and Wensleydale where sheep have been taken off and the grouse population is also decreasing. We want none of this nonsense about endangered species, the species in danger is the farmer.